Reply to Ryan on the Terrorism Fatwa

Ryan left a comment on Sheikh Tahir-ul-Qadri’s terrorism Fatwa: Bogus! I will insert superscripts in his screed to correlate to my responses to the important points.

Ok, now you are out and out lying. 1

First off, the reason the fight broke out with the Banu Quariyza was because they tried to double cross the muslims DESPITE HAVING A PEACE TREATY. That constitutes TREASON and in Jewish law (and every other law in existence) Treason equals death. under jewish law, everyone would have died. Given that tamiyaana is only trusted by one sect shalfi, his interpretation is rather suspect. As for the children; during those times, every single culture (non muslim alike) was of the opinion that when you attacked, any one old enough to carry a sword was a threat, and as such, dead meat. 2

Also, Your assumption that non muslims were not to recieve the same treatment as muslims is also flawed (they say “children” not muslim childrens, and during this time they were at war with… guessed it, non muslims.) If muhammed was only at war with non muslims, then how in gods name do you explain it? 3

Islam has first drawn a clear line of distinction between the combatants and the non-combatants of the enemy country. As far as the non-combatant population is concerned such as women, children, the old and the infirm, etc., the instructions of the Prophet are as follows:

“Do not kill any old person, any child or any woman” (Abu Dawud). “Do not kill the monks in monasteries” or “Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship” (Musnad of Ibn Hanbal).

During a war, the Prophet saw the corpse of a woman lying on the ground and observed: “She was not fighting. How then she came to be killed?” From this statement of the Prophet the exegetists and jurists have drawn the principle that those who are non-combatants should not be killed during or after the war
Why did he use “any?”

And why did he say “”Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy’s flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone” to an army on the way to attack Byzantine territory? At that point, Islam was still confined to saudi arabia.

and how do you ecplain these statements

It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah said: Do not desire an encounter with the enemy; but when you encounter them, be firm. – Muslim Book 019, Number 4313

It is narrated on the authority of ‘Abdullah that a woman was found killed in one of the battles fought by the Messenger of Allah . He disapproved of the killing of women and children. – Muslim Book 019, Number 4319

YUSUFALI: Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
PICKTHAL: Except those who seek refuge with a people between whom and you there is a covenant, or (those who) come unto you because their hearts forbid them to make war on you or make war on their own folk. Had Allah willed He could have given them power over you so that assuredly they would have fought you. So, if they hold aloof from you and wage not war against you and offer you peace, Allah alloweth you no way against them.
SHAKIR: Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.

Again, showing that islam clearly intended for peace treaties to be honored.

And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit. [Qur’an 29:46]
In other places the Qur’an says:

Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Ma’rûf and forbid Al-Munkar ; and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are Al-Muttaqûn .(3:113-115)
And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. ‘(3:199)’
Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . [Qur’an 2:62]
Say (O Muhammad ): “O people of the Scripture : Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but God, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God. [Qur’an 3:64]

Why did jewish life in muslim countries come across as better then the absolute hell hole that was chritisan europe?

The hanafi school of islamic thought has also made it quite clear that as far as they are concerned, defensive warfare is the only kind allowed, meaning that there are many who DON’T heed reliance of a traveller.

The Quran outranks the hadith, and the quran says that non muslims shouldn’t be slaughtered in battle (unlless they are enemy soldiers). Seriously, do real reserach rather then finding the scholars who agree with you and completely ignoring logic in order to suit your own world view4

1. Not being a Muslim, I don’t lie. I present evidence and make it easy for my readers to do their own research into my sources.

2.  The story of the genocide starts on 461 of The Life of Muhammad. In the hadith, turn to Sahih Bukhari 4.52.280 and Tafsir Ibn Kathir.

3.  I find nothing in the original post about unequal treatment. In that post, I established the motivation behind the prohibition of killing women and children. Dead bodies have no value on the slave market.  Turn to 33:26-27.  What happened to those women and children?  Islamic law has a clue for you.

o9.13 When a child or a woman is taken captive, they become slaves by the fact of capture, and the woman’s previous marriage is immediately annulled.

4. There are plenty of contradictory hadith, Moe allowed killing children in night raids and when using catapaults to throw burning projectiles.  Cherry picking does not overcome the fatal facts:

  • The Qur’an mandates jihad.
  • Allah commands Muslims to fight.
  • Moe confirmed the command.
  • Islamic law confirms the command.
  • Islamic history is a long string of raids, ghazwats & conquests.
  • Moe bragged about winning with terror.
  • The Sheikh lied, and I proved it.

If terrorism is harram, then Moe is hellbound.

Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah’s Apostle said, “I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand.” Abu Huraira added: Allah’s Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

Bukhari Volume 1, Book 7, Number 331:
Narrated Jabir bin ‘Abdullah:
The Prophet said, “I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me.
1. Allah made me victorious by awe, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month’s journey.
2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due.
3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me.
4. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection).
5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.

That is the testimony of Moe’s bosom buddies who fought shoulder to shoulder with him, not his enemies.  The facts are fatal to the  big lie.


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16 Responses to “Reply to Ryan on the Terrorism Fatwa”

  1. Ryan Says:

    1.) YEs you did. There are many quranic verses which forbid lying.

    2.) You only included the verdict. not the fact that the Quariyza tried to plot against the muslims (and were thus guilty of treason)

    3.) It was also possible for slaves to be FREED (which ultimately happened with the rest of the captives.) the whole “slavery was the only reason” is advocated only by tamiyya. None of the other scholars implied anything even remotely similar. Islamic law also stated that slaves could be freed, and even encouraged it (muhammed freed quite a few of his own slaves). There are many muslims who DON’T follow the jurisprudence thought, and whats more the only definitive thing about any of those groups was the methodology used. Any idiot who’s ever conducted a scientific experiment will tell you that it is possible to get different outcomes from the same methodology. history and philosophy are no different.

    5.) a.) Psychological warfare has often been endorsed by every military commander under the sun. Was sherman wrong for torching the south?
    b.) Muslims can pray anytime they want. Wierd, but by no means harmful.
    c.) Considering that quite a bit of that loot had been muslim property, not exactly dishonest.
    d.) So if jesus helps get involved in christian judgement day (thye same jesus who said all non christians will burn in hell) it’s okay? Muhammed is being no different from others her.
    e.) No different from every oother prophet (except for the jewish ones.) Just about every one believed that they were the bie messiah.

    4.) So, since roman soldiers were afraid to face Hannibal on the battlefield, that means hannibal also used terror am i right? Quran overrules hadith

  2. John Says:

    So, do you have another response for “Ryan” or not?

  3. John Says:

    Have you conceded to defeat?

  4. John Says:

    LOL. Still nothing from a cowardly Islamophobe. Have you no shame with your propaganda?

  5. Ryan Says:

    oh, and citing sources such as kathir and presenting them as the be all and end all is shameless appeal to authority.

  6. dajjal Says:

    The Qur’an is the ultimate source, followed by the sunnah, which exemplifies its ultimate interpretation. Who is more qualified to explicate the Qur’an than the one who revealed it?

    Tafsir Ibn Kathir brings the two together in a clear and understandable form. I use tafsir to confirm what is already obvious.

    Doubters & dissenters should turn to The Sealed Nectar and Guillaume’s translation of The Life of Muhammad to see what he did. If memory serves, there about 130 instances of raid in the latter text.

  7. Ryan Says:

    ibn ishaq was denounced even in his own time by his contempary’s. the charges ranged from academic dishonesty to shitty research

    • dajjal Says:

      The parts I have checked are consistent with Sahih Bukhari & Tabari. I do not see any reason to dismiss the text.

  8. Ryan Says:

    Again you display ingnorance of the way the quran is laid out; it is meant to have both specific meaning based on time periods and more general meanings for future generations. That is why specifics were avoided; historical context still plays somewhat of a role (9:5 made during a time when the enemy tried to betray him despite having a treaty.)

    And as a whole, many of his chains of narration were unreliable

    Also, kathir did make some mistakes (he ignores that the word for war in surah 5 33 is yuhuribah, which makes no mention of disbelief. As such, he was wrong in that case. What’s more, Al-Ahlzar university (the guys who passed rott, were the ones who ruled that the abolition of apostasy’s death penalty was legitimate.)

  9. dajjal Says:

    What Moe preached regarding warfare tracks with the quantity and quality of military force at his disposal. Refer to the Sealed Nectar for confirmation

  10. Ryan Says:

    Dude, the sirah’s contradict each other so often it’s not even funny. Besides, there are scholars both muslim and non muslim who do not consider them wholly reliable.

    You look at only the info that will give you a superficial knowledge instead of actually learning about the religion in depth from actual college courses.

    You claim to not need to be an expert. Anyone with only cursory knowledge is inevitably going to miss alot of info

  11. dajjal Says:

    Sirah, Tahrik & hadith are all dependent on the same secondary source: hearsay. Absolute certainty is not obtainable.

    Unfortunately for your argument, theey form a congruent pattern which matches the Qur’an.

    The Qur’an & two sahihs provide the framework, The Sealed Nectar, Life of Moe and Tabari provide confirming details.

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